In one corner, the two-time and reigning Mr. Olympia, hungry to prove himself worthy of bodybuilding’s ultimate title once again after narrowly holding on to it a year ago. In the other, the reigning Arnold Classic champ, who took a giant step forward with his best-ever showing in March of this year, when he won not one, but three contests in a span of three weeks in dominating fashion. Now, with the retirement of Ronnie Coleman and the uncertainty of Victor Martinez’s status, the two are on a collision course for Las Vegas at the 2008 Olympia, presented by MuscleTech, in what is shaping up to be a classic battle of size versus symmetry.
SCENE I: TRADING BLOWS
PETER McGOUGH: Dexter, at this year’s Arnold Classic, everybody said that you were the best you’ve ever been. Do you agree, and if so what was the reason?
DEXTER JACKSON: I do agree. Me and my trainer, Joe McNeal, came up with a game plan. We changed everything up this year and it made the difference. Now we know what we need to do to put on the extra size, so now we’re looking to come in a couple pounds heavier for the Olympia.
PM: If Victor Martinez had competed at this year’s Arnold, do you think that would have changed the result?
DEXTER: I think I would still win if Victor competed.
ALLAN DONNELLY: Jay, what do you think about that? Would Dexter have won if Victor were in the show?
JAY CUTLER: I think that Victor would have won, because he was the reigning champion.
DEXTER: I was the reigning champion before that, and Victor beat me. [In 2007, Victor Martinez took the Arnold title after Dexter had held it for two years.]
JAY: I know that, but he beat you. You weren’t the reigning champ anymore [at that time].
DEXTER: Exactly. That means if he beat me, I would beat him back.
PM: Jay, were Dexter’s condition and physique at the Arnold his best ever?
JAY: It’s hard to say the best ever. It was probably the best overall package. It was his best combination of conditioning and fullness, I think. He’s probably been more shredded before.
DEXTER: I think I was more shredded before at the [2003] GNC [Show of Strength] when I beat Jay.
JAY: But the muscle wasn’t as full at that one. This year, he was a little fuller.
PM: Dexter, at this year’s Arnold, you were seven pounds heavier than last year. For several years, you’ve come onstage with just about the same physique. Why the jump forward this year and not earlier?
DEXTER: What we fail to realize is that when my ex-wife went through that terrible kidnapping ordeal [prior to the 2006 Arnold Classic], it set me way back. I lost a lot of weight and, by the grace of God, I was still able to pull out that victory for the Arnold in 2006. For the Olympia last year, I was seven pounds lighter because my knee was hurting really bad. I couldn’t squat. So I’m seven pounds heavier than the Olympia, but probably only four pounds heavier than when I won the Arnold in 2005. So, really, I’ve only put on three pounds of muscle since 2005. But one or two pounds, it shows up on my physique, so that’s a lot for me.
PM: What’s your ambition level like this year compared to previous years?
DEXTER: Greater than ever because, for the first time, I feel that if I’m ever going to win this show, this would be the year. I won the Arnold, I got my title back and I look the best I’ve looked. And I know that I can come in even better. So, I feel if I’m going to win the Olympia, this would be the year. If I don’t win this year, I’m never going to win. That’s the way I see it. That’s why the ambition and the dedication are through the roof right now.
PM: So you feel there’s an opening here you can take advantage of?
DEXTER: I feel that way because I don’t think Jay can come in conditioned the way he used to. I don’t think he knows how to make the proper adjustments to do it. With me, you can’t look back and say, "Dexter, back in 2004, was way harder than he is now." But you can look back with Jay and say that in 2001, that was his best.
AD: Jay, what do you say to that?
JAY: See, Dexter is kind of kidding himself, because I don’t even need to look like that to beat the people I’m up against now. I don’t need to look like I did in 2001. I have a combination of size and enough condition to win. We sit here and he’s talking about condition and he thinks that’s his strength but …
DEXTER: I proved it once before [at the 2003 GNC Show of Strength] and you were way bigger than me then.
JAY: That was once. I still say bulls-t on the call. We’ll see in September. I have no question about it.
DEXTER: And he shouldn’t. He is Mr. Olympia.
PM: Jay, are you preparing to be as good as you think you have to be to beat those guys or to be the best that you’ve ever been?
JAY: Good enough to win. Good enough to win.
DEXTER: You see, that’s what’s gonna hurt him. He don’t have that drive anymore.
JAY: No, it’s not the drive. I just know what it’s gonna take to win. It has nothing to do with drive.
DEXTER: All right, well, come in looking like you did last year. [Laughs]
PM: In your early years, what did you weigh when you first went onstage?
JAY: 214
DEXTER: 137
PM: So, Dexter, you have put on 100 pounds?
DEXTER: Yeah.
JAY: You were a bantamweight, right? You were a little s-t. See, so when you shrink down, you’ll be nothing.
DEXTER: I was shredded. I was shred-ded, dawg.
JAY: Yeah, but when you shrink down, you’ll be nothing.
DEXTER: I’ll be looking like s-t.
JAY: Yeah. [Laughs] How much do you think you’ll weigh? You won’t ever train again once you quit.
DEXTER: I’ll still work out. But I’ll probably get down to about 180.
JAY: Yeah, you’ll still hold on to some muscle.
AD: Jay, for so many years it’s been you chasing Ronnie Coleman. Now that you don’t have to deal with him, do you feel like something is missing?
JAY: Yeah, I was always chasing Ronnie and trying to do things to overcome him and now, obviously, I can focus a little more on myself. I’m not really thinking of anything besides what I need to look like. But it’s definitely going to be different without him.
PM: Dexter, you’ve said in the past when Ronnie was champ you thought he was unbeatable. Do you have the same feeling about the present champ?
DEXTER: No, because I’ve beaten Jay before. I’ve never beaten Ronnie Coleman. Jay doesn’t display the mass and the conditioning that Ronnie had when I was making those comments. Of course, Ronnie started backsliding and he wasn’t looking as good as he was in the early years. But in his early years, I think even Jay will tell you that he was unbeatable. Because I used to see Jay backstage [and he was like] "Damn - he’s huge."
PM: Jay, at the 2001 Olympia a lot of people saw you as the winner. It seemed after that you took the route of "OK, that look didn’t beat Ronnie, I’ve gotta go and match him for size." Was that a route that you really wanted to take or you felt in a way that you were forced to take?
JAY: Nah. Honestly I just trained and did pretty much the same thing every year. The only difference between my physique in 2001 and last year is my how much fluid I had in my body. I was really dehydrated in 2001, and I guarantee you, if I dehydrate to that point, by body would have that similar look today. I did the same thing for the ‘04 Arnold, when I was coming back after the loss to Dexter. I wanted to come in super shredded but, as conditioned as I was, it wasn’t the best look for my physique. So I just kind of threw any plans out the window after that, as far as my preparation and I went with what I had at the time.
SCENE III: GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN
PM: In an ideal flight plan into the Olympia, how do you envision yourself looking in comparison to say last year?
JAY: Obviously, last year I had an off year, so I think a lot of these guys are looking for an opportunity to step in and take my title. Dexter will probably tell you that’s the reason, too. But you can’t really look at last year and say, ‘OK, this is what I’m up against," because I’m not coming like last year. I looked good leading up to the show. I just had a few things at the end that threw me for a loop, and I just didn’t nail it like I needed to nail it. But it was just enough to win.
AD: Dexter, who should have won the 2007 Olympia?
DEXTER: I should have won. A lot of people had me winning.
AD: So what was your top three at the ‘07 Olympia? You’re one, who’s two and three?
DEXTER: I’m first. Tossup between Victor and Jay for second and third. Hey, Jay was off. He just admitted it.
JAY: I was still good enough to win.
SCENE IV: DEX GETS THE LAST WORD
PM: So, Dexter, one of the things that’s driving you is the fact that you’ve beaten Jay before - in 2003, in a head-to-head match at the Show of Strength, and Jay had just finished second at the Olympia two weeks before. What are your recollections of the Show of Strength?
JAY: I still cry bulls-t.
DEXTER: Did you see my condition at that show? I’ll never get that again, man; that was ridiculous. I think that was my best condition by far.
PM: Your recollections of that show, Jay?
JAY: I was pretty pissed off.
PM: Did you go to Europe [for the Euro tour]?
DEXTER: He went to Europe thinking he was going to win all the shows over there and come back and sweep the GNC.
JAY: I got shafted.
DEXTER: [Laughs] Can’t win’em all, bro.
JAY: They got tired of me winning because I won five out of eight that year, so they didn’t want me to make the sweep.
DEXTER: Whatever it was, that was nice winning that 100 grand.
SCENE V: POSEDOWN
PM: OK, guys, we are going to put a few pictures of you hitting the same shot in front of you. Jay, yours are from the 2006 Olympia. Dexter, yours are from the 2008 Arnold. Tell us who wins and why.
POSE #1: ABS AND THIGHS
PM: Who wins?
Jay: I killed him.
PM: Which points, particularly in that pose?
JAY: I think separation in myself.
DEXTER: You’re just saying that because I didn’t hit my legs right there.
JAY: Well, that’s your fault dude, that’s the pose.
DEXTER: Well, I think you’re too blocky. I think my shape is better. I have better abs.
JAY: You have better abs?
DEXTER: Yeah.
JAY: Not to me; there’s a lot of space there.
DEXTER: Yeah, but I got a better ab block. And my serratus is ridiculous.
JAY: Yeah, but that’s not what’s being judged.
DEXTER: [Laughs] This is what kind of shot? The what shot?
JAY: The abs and thigh. But you know, it’s the overall package, so they’re looking at legs and you’re not even flexing your legs here.
DEXTER: Ok, well, do we have one with me flexing, Peter?
JAY: No, cause you can’t. You can’t flex your legs in that shot.
DEXTER: Anyway.
PM: Who wins here?
JAY: I win.
AD: Why?
JAY: Honestly, I think my shape is better in that pose.
AD: What’s better about it?
JAY: I think my whole . . . everything.
DEXTER: Well, let’s have a judge-off in here. Let people in here judge and see who gets more votes. [Laughs]
JAY: I won.
DEXTER: [Laughs]
AD: Dex, give me two reasons why you win this pose.
DEXTER: Because I got better balance.
JAY: I have better balance. You don’t have calves.
DEXTER: It looks like I got’em there.
AD: Give me a reason why Jay doesn’t win that shot?
DEXTER: Too blocky.
AD: Give m a reason why Jay does win that shot.
DEXTER: ‘Cause he’s Jay. He’s Mr. Olympia. [Laughs] That’s why. But I think this year it’ll be different, because the top five will be in shape. And you know, if someone were off . . . it’s gonna hurt’em.
AD: Who’s the least likely to come in condition in the top five?
DEXTER: Jay. If it’s Phil Heath, me and . . .
AD: Dennis Wolf?
DEXTER: Well, Dennis, he doesn’t get that hard anyway.
JAY: It depends. Dexter’s in-shape and my in-shape are two totally different things. Just because the body fat is stripped off and you have shredded glutes and whatever, it all comes down to what the judges see from the judges’ table. His body fat may be lower but when I have the amount of muscle mass that I have and I have the balance that I have . . . when you flex that muscle, the muscle sucks that skin in and gives you that separation and conditioned look. Someone who doesn’t carry that much muscle, such as Dexter and the other smaller guys he’s talking about, are never going to have that.
DEXTER: [Snores]
AD: You agree with that, Dex?
DEXTER: He’s not going to be the most conditioned guy because he’s bigger. Jay hasn’t matched his condition since . . . when was that, 2001? Until he gets there, we can’t put him in the same sentence as guys who really get in shape.
Dexter: This is my shot right here. Side chest belongs to me.
AD: Break it down. Where do you beat him?
DEXTER: See that separation? Nobody has that. All of this is shredded - you can’t see none of that in this picture [points to Jay’s photo]. I’m way harder than I look in this picture. But that’s Jay right there all the way. He looked just like that. I’m way harder. Am I lying, Peter?
PM: So Dexter’s is a brilliant picture and Jay’s is a bad picture?
DEXTER: Yep. Do we agree on that, Jay?
JAY: When we stand side-to-side, we’ll see who wins the shot. Pictures mean s-t.
DEXTER: [Laughs]
JAY: You know pictures don’t mean s-t.
POSE #4: MOST-MUSCULAR
PM: Ok, here’s the final one.
DEXTER: Oh, you know I got that.
JAY: He fits right inside me.
DEXTER: You know I got that right there [points to traps and delts].
JAY: Condition is great.
DEXTER: Come on, Jay, you have to give me one, bro. Hey, this means nothing, you know why? Because Gustavo [Badell] beat everybody in the Challenge Round.
PM: Dexter, what do you think is your best pose? If it was down to one pose against everybody else, what pose would you pick?
DEXTER: That’s mine right there [the most-muscular].
JAY: That shows his condition the best.
PM: What about you, Jay, what’s your knockout?
JAY: This is probably my weakest pose.
AD: What’s your strongest?
JAY: Back shots. I fill the stage up when I do the back shots.
AD: Who has the best most-muscular bodybuilding right now?
DEXTER: Probably me.
AD: You? Jay who’s got it?
JAY: Well, I’m a size guy, so I think Dennis Wolf wins the most-muscular if you look at last year’s Olympia, because he’s got a lot of size. That’s the whole thing people look at. That’s a phenomenal shot for Dexter, there’s no question about it. He’s got the overall balance here, with the shredded conditioning and the fullness in the upper chest, but when we stand on the stage, it’s a size thing.
DEXTER: If you see us onstage, there’s no way you can tell that you outweigh me by 50 pounds.
JAY: Well, not 50 but maybe 20.
DEXTER: But you outweigh me by, if I’m only 233 and you’re what?
JAY: 270.
DEXTER: See - 40 pounds. There’s no way you can tell I’m giving up that much size.
JAY: No, no, no. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m just saying that there is a size difference.
DEXTER: There is. I agree.
JAY: And, obviously, that’s what I’m using as my advantage.
SCENE VI: PREDICTION TIME
AD: We know who you say is gonna win. Who finishes second?
JAY: Dexter.
DEXTER: Jay.
PM: What about Victor? Do we think Victor is going to be there?
JAY: No.
DEXTER: Yeah, I say no. If Kai Greene is doing it, it would be between him and Phil [for third]. If Melvin Anthony comes in shape, he could very well be in third, as well. But judging by what he’s been coming in as of late, if he comes in any kind of shape, he’ll probably be fourth or fifth. Wolf is up in there. I think it’s a tossup from third place on.
AD: There’s been a lot of talk about Dennis Wolf. Do you think that was even a close call last year between you and Dennis?
DEXTER: No, The talk was because he’s big and tall. Everybody loves big and tall guys. They loved Günter [Schlierkamp]. But I don’t know why he gets all the hype like that.
JAY: Because FLEX magazine hyped him with that bulls-t cover. That’s why.
AD: Which cover is that?
JAY: The "Did Jay Deserve It?" Bulls-t cover.
PM: And the bulls-t report inside? [The report asserted that Jay won.]
JAY: Yeah, It’s terrible. Worst cover ever.
AD: Why was that cover bulls-t?
JAY: My family picked up that cover and they said, "Why are they doing this?" It was almost like to pinpoint Jay, like he shouldn’t have won the title. People don’t read what’s inside the magazine; they read what’s on the cover and even though the article inside told a different story, it still revved up the fact that Wolf wasn’t compared to me and that there should have been a comparison. But I didn’t even know that Wolf was in the damn prejudging, to be honest with you. I didn’t even know he was in the night show. I wasn’t paying attention. All I cared about was me and Victor, ’cause I knew we were one-two. When all these people are talking about the posedown and Wolf following me around, I had no idea that the guy was even there.
DEXTER: So, this is gonna be an easy victory for you. All you gonna think about is you this year? Nobody else?
JAY: No, I just think about being my best, ’cause that’s what wins.
DEXTER: You just said last year you only thought about Victor, so I’m just wondering.
JAY: No, one-two. When the final calls were done at the posedown, I knew that’s who my competition was. I wasn’t worried about you or Wolf or the other guys.
AD: How about this year, is anybody on the radar like Victor was last year? Is Dexter on your radar?
JAY: Yeah, I mean, you always think about the second-place guy. But if I show up in shape, it’s lights out.
AD: How much do you think that Dexter is a legitimate threat this year, and how much do you think that this is all just hype?
JAY: I think Dexter is as much of a threat as a lot of guys are. I have to give a lot of guys credit, but you know the show runs on hype. I’m hyped to win because I won the year prior. Dexter is hyped because he has the second biggest title in bodybuilding. If Victor won the Arnold Classic, we’d be hyping him right now. So it’s running off the hype of what you’ve done lately, and the problem is that what I did last year was not the best showing of Jay Cutler. So people like Dexter think, Well, if Jay comes in out of shape. . .Obviously, my condition is not as good as Dexter’s. We just talked about that because of size difference and about why he classifies Ronnie Coleman as such a great champion - because he had that combination of size and condition, and that’s why I didn’t beat him. But if you look at the years since 200l, I was runner-up to Coleman and it didn’t matter if Dexter was shredded or if this guy looked like that. I was still the closest to Ronnie as far as size and some conditioning. Obviously, I’m always up and down on conditioning. I said myself that it’s a weakness for me. In 2006, I brought the best combination to win at that point; obviously, Coleman wasn’t at his absolute best and started to fall down on the other side, like Dexter just said. Dexter just walked into what he’s claiming as the best look ever, but what keeps me from coming into the Olympia not looking best ever?
DEXTER: You can’t make adjustments. I said that, too.
JAY: So, his opinion is that I can’t get any better.
DEXTER: No, my opinion is you don’t know how to make the proper adjustments in order to better yourself.
JAY: The difference between Dexter and me is he has a coach leaning over his shoulder going, "Go, Dexter, go." It’s me and Kerry [Jay’s wife] at home making these decisions. If he thinks that’s an advantage to him, that’s great, but I’m just doing what I do every other year. I can do it on my own. I’m not going to sit there and thank the coach and this and that. I’ll bring what it will take to win, and I’m not going to have someone sitting there saying, "Do this and do that."
DEXTER: Having Joe there is not for him to be my cheerleader, or nothing like that.
JAY: No, but he’s making decisions for your body.
DEXTER: He does do that. Look, I can do this myself. I didn’t have Joe until a couple of years ago. I was still winning shows when I hired him.
JAY: You hired him in 2003 ’cause he helped you win - to supposedly beat me at the GNC. So a couple of years ago - that was 2003.
DEXTER: Right, but before that I still was doing my thing, still shredded. Hey, Joe hasn’t gotten me harder that I was when I was by myself. He thinks he has and I think he hasn’t. But that’s what makes us a team - we talk things out. It’s nice to sit back in the room and have somebody come by and say, "Do this and this,’ and not have to worry about it. I lay back and go to sleep. When you’re doing it yourself, you’re in a mirror, flexing and thinking, What do I need to do? That’s the only reason why I hired him, to keep me more relaxed, because he’s got an eye that no one has.
JAY: I don’t need anyone telling me what to do.
SCENE VII: CLOSURE
PM: Dexter, if you were never to win the Olympia, would that leave you feeling unfulfilled when the time came to hang it up?
DEXTER: No, not at all. When I first started competing, my all-time goal was to win the Arnold Classic and not the Olympia. Mr. Olympia has been about being the biggest for the past few decades. Winning the Olympia was never a goal of mine, because to be Mr. Olympia, there are a lot of sacrifices that you have to make in order to try to be the biggest. That’s the way I saw it. Now, things have changed. I’d be happy just to win it one year and lose in the next year. Just one year, that’s all I need.
PM: You said earlier you feel this is your best chance to win the Olympia. If you don’t win, will this be your last Olympia?
DEXTER: No. It’s not going to stop me from coming back. I’m still going to give 100% no matter what show I do. I feel that with the guys coming in - Phil and Kai, for example - we all have very, very good conditioning. Everyone would have to be at our level of condition in order to beat any of us. Because if you’ve got me [at the top], then those guys should be right behind me. That’s the only reason that I feel I can win this year. Now, make no mistake, if Jay comes in shape, if he’s just as hard as us, none of us are gonna beat him. But I don’t feel that he can get into that condition anymore. That’s the reason I feel like I can beat him now. If he proves me wrong and he can get in that condition, Jay is going to win. You heard it from me.
AD: Jay, you’ve been doing this for a long time. Are you at the point yet, before you start your prep again, where you think, Man I have to do this again?
JAY: Nah. I’m actually pumped up for this year. But this is a telltale show for me. This show is a big deciding factor for what’s going to happen next year. But I don’t even think as much as a day ahead anymore. I’ve just thrown that out the window. I just roll with it.
PM: At one time, four or five years ago, you were basically saying that by this time you would be done.
JAY: Well, I thought I’d win the title a lot earlier, too, and honestly I was a little frustrated. Even last year was a pretty taxing year for me after winning the title. This year, I just mellowed out a little bit, approached things with a whole different mindset, and I’m kind of back to my roots and not giving a s-t about too many things.
AD: Before you won your first Olympia, you were basically obsessed with beating Coleman. Having come so close so many times and knowing what that feels like, do you think winning the Olympia means more to you than to anybody else in the show?
JAY: No, I’ve already done it. To me, I won one - I just wanted to win one. I think Dexter may be the one with the most fire for the show this year because he sees an opportunity. I’ve been there. I’m showing up as the champion, but also as a question mark. People are going to be critical of me after last year’s performance. You have people doubting that I won. I’m never going to win back some of those people, so no matter how I look this year, people are going to knock this or that. But my legacy still continues; that’s the most important thing. It’s not about how many times I’ve won the Mr. Olympia. I don’t care about a string of wins, or how many times I win it. It’s just about building the name of Jay Cutler and what I’ve done in the sport of bodybuilding as a bodybuilder but also as a person.
PM: Anything else you would like to put on record for the Olympia, in general or connected to each other? The final word.
DEXTER: Go ahead, Jay. I have no final word.
JAY: Fifteen and a half weeks to title number three.
